around 3 years ago i bought an apple macbook pro 13in because it was well-built, high spec'd and high-priced (translation: plenty of profit so that no corners need to be cut in manufacturing, which in turn means less chance of component failure).
that was the theory, anyway. one design flaw, though: the PCIe SSD could be "spiked" by the lack of earthing of the power supply, resulting in resets of the SATA bus about twice per second. setting "min_power" on the SATA bus stopped this flood of entries in /var/log/syslog... but the setting was OVER-RIDDEN at the slightest opportunity.
also, i had no idea that i would need more than 8GB of RAM (and the macbook pro is NOT UPGRADABLE - the RAM is soldered down).
i've also just had my backup SSD (a 4 year old kingston 512mb SSD which is hardly used) totally fail after a non-intensive *READ*. not write: READ.
with the macbook pro's internal SSD being difficult to get at, i'm feeling a leetle paranoid: this machine is a CRITICAL resource, now a single point of failure. my partner's machine only has 4GB of RAM and a 1600x1080 LCD. lovely machine but it would in no way cope with what i'm doing.
also... i've literally worn holes in two of the keys (ctrl and S)...
basically it's time to get a new laptop, and i need something that has particularly special high-end specifications in certain areas:
* 2560x1600 or greater resolution LCD (CAD development) * 13in size (has to fit in my backpack) * below 1.5kg weight (carryable) * 16GB of RAM (i'm maxing out the 8GB) * 512GB SSD (i've maxed out the 256GB drive) * cooperative manufacturer that hasn't caved in to microsoft cartelling business practices
actual processor and processor speed isn't actually relevant. battery life: also not really relevant. doesn't *particularly* need a dedicated GPU: intel shared graphics turns out to work well enough for the 3D CAD work that i do (even when the framerate is seconds per frame in openscad). i run mostly from mains, and processors are so insanely fast these days that speed is not really an issue.
now, the machine i came up with is the Dell XPS 13, 9350:
https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn/Dell/Dell_XPS_13_9350
i looked at the lenovo yoga 900: zowee, lenovo are unethical. they've locked the BIOS so that you can't switch the NVMe SSD out of RAID mode (so you can't even install windows from a windows CD), they've refused refunds to people who claim mis-selling, they're ACTIVELY working to release new BIOS updates that prevent and prohibit people from installing linux, and they're scrambling to constantly censor reports and complaints on their forum.
i also looked at the asus zenbook: fantastic machine.... except the 13in variant peaks at 12GB of RAM.
sony... have stopped doing laptops! that's the end of an era: i'm amazed...
now, before i go spending $USD 1500 of crowd-funding money (which is easily justifiable as it's absolutely essential that i have a working machine and a half-decent backup) i'd like to double-check with people if they know of anything better than the XPS 9350, both in terms of specification as well as support for the linux community from the manufacturer. dell appear to be cooperating, releasing BIOS updates that *actively* help linux users (as opposed to lenovo who do the complete opposite and then try to hide the fact, generally being incredibly evasive and unethical).
thoughts and suggestions appreciated for evaluation. the 9350's at the top of the list right now.
l.
Hey Luke,
Well, obviously you know that there are a couple more hardware people like https://www.thinkpenguin.com/ in the US and novatech.co.uk in the UK, but none of these are particularly interesting from a tech or friendliness perspective.
If it's just about having a machine that might be compromised whilst you bootstrap the new system up, then, the Mac Mini would get my upvote (true, it's bad in some respects concerning freedom), but it does support multiple screens, but, then it is locked down (soldered RAM).
Whatever you decide, I feel I should add that whilst my business is improving, I've still not been able to generate any more money for the project. (I could sell some items, though, though that's more worst case scenario)
Russ
On 4 December 2016 at 11:15, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
around 3 years ago i bought an apple macbook pro 13in because it was well-built, high spec'd and high-priced (translation: plenty of profit so that no corners need to be cut in manufacturing, which in turn means less chance of component failure).
that was the theory, anyway. one design flaw, though: the PCIe SSD could be "spiked" by the lack of earthing of the power supply, resulting in resets of the SATA bus about twice per second. setting "min_power" on the SATA bus stopped this flood of entries in /var/log/syslog... but the setting was OVER-RIDDEN at the slightest opportunity.
also, i had no idea that i would need more than 8GB of RAM (and the macbook pro is NOT UPGRADABLE - the RAM is soldered down).
i've also just had my backup SSD (a 4 year old kingston 512mb SSD which is hardly used) totally fail after a non-intensive *READ*. not write: READ.
with the macbook pro's internal SSD being difficult to get at, i'm feeling a leetle paranoid: this machine is a CRITICAL resource, now a single point of failure. my partner's machine only has 4GB of RAM and a 1600x1080 LCD. lovely machine but it would in no way cope with what i'm doing.
also... i've literally worn holes in two of the keys (ctrl and S)...
basically it's time to get a new laptop, and i need something that has particularly special high-end specifications in certain areas:
- 2560x1600 or greater resolution LCD (CAD development)
- 13in size (has to fit in my backpack)
- below 1.5kg weight (carryable)
- 16GB of RAM (i'm maxing out the 8GB)
- 512GB SSD (i've maxed out the 256GB drive)
- cooperative manufacturer that hasn't caved in to microsoft
cartelling business practices
actual processor and processor speed isn't actually relevant. battery life: also not really relevant. doesn't *particularly* need a dedicated GPU: intel shared graphics turns out to work well enough for the 3D CAD work that i do (even when the framerate is seconds per frame in openscad). i run mostly from mains, and processors are so insanely fast these days that speed is not really an issue.
now, the machine i came up with is the Dell XPS 13, 9350:
https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn/Dell/Dell_XPS_13_9350
i looked at the lenovo yoga 900: zowee, lenovo are unethical. they've locked the BIOS so that you can't switch the NVMe SSD out of RAID mode (so you can't even install windows from a windows CD), they've refused refunds to people who claim mis-selling, they're ACTIVELY working to release new BIOS updates that prevent and prohibit people from installing linux, and they're scrambling to constantly censor reports and complaints on their forum.
i also looked at the asus zenbook: fantastic machine.... except the 13in variant peaks at 12GB of RAM.
sony... have stopped doing laptops! that's the end of an era: i'm amazed...
now, before i go spending $USD 1500 of crowd-funding money (which is easily justifiable as it's absolutely essential that i have a working machine and a half-decent backup) i'd like to double-check with people if they know of anything better than the XPS 9350, both in terms of specification as well as support for the linux community from the manufacturer. dell appear to be cooperating, releasing BIOS updates that *actively* help linux users (as opposed to lenovo who do the complete opposite and then try to hide the fact, generally being incredibly evasive and unethical).
thoughts and suggestions appreciated for evaluation. the 9350's at the top of the list right now.
l.
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
Hi all,
FYI they did not answer to my request since i live in France i guess, cool machines anyway !
a+ Franck
Le 04/12/2016 à 12:39, Russell Hyer a écrit :
Hey Luke,
Well, obviously you know that there are a couple more hardware people like https://www.thinkpenguin.com/ in the US and novatech.co.uk in the UK, but none of these are particularly interesting from a tech or friendliness perspective.
If it's just about having a machine that might be compromised whilst you bootstrap the new system up, then, the Mac Mini would get my upvote (true, it's bad in some respects concerning freedom), but it does support multiple screens, but, then it is locked down (soldered RAM).
Whatever you decide, I feel I should add that whilst my business is improving, I've still not been able to generate any more money for the project. (I could sell some items, though, though that's more worst case scenario)
Russ
On 4 December 2016 at 11:15, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
around 3 years ago i bought an apple macbook pro 13in because it was well-built, high spec'd and high-priced (translation: plenty of profit so that no corners need to be cut in manufacturing, which in turn means less chance of component failure).
that was the theory, anyway. one design flaw, though: the PCIe SSD could be "spiked" by the lack of earthing of the power supply, resulting in resets of the SATA bus about twice per second. setting "min_power" on the SATA bus stopped this flood of entries in /var/log/syslog... but the setting was OVER-RIDDEN at the slightest opportunity.
also, i had no idea that i would need more than 8GB of RAM (and the macbook pro is NOT UPGRADABLE - the RAM is soldered down).
i've also just had my backup SSD (a 4 year old kingston 512mb SSD which is hardly used) totally fail after a non-intensive *READ*. not write: READ.
with the macbook pro's internal SSD being difficult to get at, i'm feeling a leetle paranoid: this machine is a CRITICAL resource, now a single point of failure. my partner's machine only has 4GB of RAM and a 1600x1080 LCD. lovely machine but it would in no way cope with what i'm doing.
also... i've literally worn holes in two of the keys (ctrl and S)...
basically it's time to get a new laptop, and i need something that has particularly special high-end specifications in certain areas:
- 2560x1600 or greater resolution LCD (CAD development)
- 13in size (has to fit in my backpack)
- below 1.5kg weight (carryable)
- 16GB of RAM (i'm maxing out the 8GB)
- 512GB SSD (i've maxed out the 256GB drive)
- cooperative manufacturer that hasn't caved in to microsoft
cartelling business practices
actual processor and processor speed isn't actually relevant. battery life: also not really relevant. doesn't *particularly* need a dedicated GPU: intel shared graphics turns out to work well enough for the 3D CAD work that i do (even when the framerate is seconds per frame in openscad). i run mostly from mains, and processors are so insanely fast these days that speed is not really an issue.
now, the machine i came up with is the Dell XPS 13, 9350:
https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn/Dell/Dell_XPS_13_9350
i looked at the lenovo yoga 900: zowee, lenovo are unethical. they've locked the BIOS so that you can't switch the NVMe SSD out of RAID mode (so you can't even install windows from a windows CD), they've refused refunds to people who claim mis-selling, they're ACTIVELY working to release new BIOS updates that prevent and prohibit people from installing linux, and they're scrambling to constantly censor reports and complaints on their forum.
i also looked at the asus zenbook: fantastic machine.... except the 13in variant peaks at 12GB of RAM.
sony... have stopped doing laptops! that's the end of an era: i'm amazed...
now, before i go spending $USD 1500 of crowd-funding money (which is easily justifiable as it's absolutely essential that i have a working machine and a half-decent backup) i'd like to double-check with people if they know of anything better than the XPS 9350, both in terms of specification as well as support for the linux community from the manufacturer. dell appear to be cooperating, releasing BIOS updates that *actively* help linux users (as opposed to lenovo who do the complete opposite and then try to hide the fact, generally being incredibly evasive and unethical).
thoughts and suggestions appreciated for evaluation. the 9350's at the top of the list right now.
l.
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
On 12/4/16, Franck Sinimalé franck@sinimale.fr wrote:
Hi all,
FYI they did not answer to my request since i live in France i guess, cool machines anyway !
unfortunately the LCD resolutions max out at 1920x1080. after having experienced a 2560x1600 LCD, where i can get *TEN* full 80x56 xterms side-by-side on one screen, or *two* web browsers full-screen 1200x800 next to *four* 80x56 xterms, or can do two 80x56 xterms and then openscad a whopping 1800x1600... or PCB CAD development 1200x1600 side-by-side with a PDF datasheet at again 1200x1600 instead of being forced to flip between the two.... *and it's portable*...
... once you've experienced that kind of development environment, a 1920x1080 LCD is a *MASSIVE* step backwards.
... can't do it, frank :)
a+ Franck
Le 04/12/2016 à 12:39, Russell Hyer a écrit :
Hey Luke,
Well, obviously you know that there are a couple more hardware people like https://www.thinkpenguin.com/ in the US and novatech.co.uk in the UK, but none of these are particularly interesting from a tech or friendliness perspective.
If it's just about having a machine that might be compromised whilst you bootstrap the new system up, then, the Mac Mini would get my upvote (true, it's bad in some respects concerning freedom), but it does support multiple screens, but, then it is locked down (soldered RAM).
Whatever you decide, I feel I should add that whilst my business is improving, I've still not been able to generate any more money for the project. (I could sell some items, though, though that's more worst case scenario)
Russ
On 4 December 2016 at 11:15, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
around 3 years ago i bought an apple macbook pro 13in because it was well-built, high spec'd and high-priced (translation: plenty of profit so that no corners need to be cut in manufacturing, which in turn means less chance of component failure).
that was the theory, anyway. one design flaw, though: the PCIe SSD could be "spiked" by the lack of earthing of the power supply, resulting in resets of the SATA bus about twice per second. setting "min_power" on the SATA bus stopped this flood of entries in /var/log/syslog... but the setting was OVER-RIDDEN at the slightest opportunity.
also, i had no idea that i would need more than 8GB of RAM (and the macbook pro is NOT UPGRADABLE - the RAM is soldered down).
i've also just had my backup SSD (a 4 year old kingston 512mb SSD which is hardly used) totally fail after a non-intensive *READ*. not write: READ.
with the macbook pro's internal SSD being difficult to get at, i'm feeling a leetle paranoid: this machine is a CRITICAL resource, now a single point of failure. my partner's machine only has 4GB of RAM and a 1600x1080 LCD. lovely machine but it would in no way cope with what i'm doing.
also... i've literally worn holes in two of the keys (ctrl and S)...
basically it's time to get a new laptop, and i need something that has particularly special high-end specifications in certain areas:
- 2560x1600 or greater resolution LCD (CAD development)
- 13in size (has to fit in my backpack)
- below 1.5kg weight (carryable)
- 16GB of RAM (i'm maxing out the 8GB)
- 512GB SSD (i've maxed out the 256GB drive)
- cooperative manufacturer that hasn't caved in to microsoft
cartelling business practices
actual processor and processor speed isn't actually relevant. battery life: also not really relevant. doesn't *particularly* need a dedicated GPU: intel shared graphics turns out to work well enough for the 3D CAD work that i do (even when the framerate is seconds per frame in openscad). i run mostly from mains, and processors are so insanely fast these days that speed is not really an issue.
now, the machine i came up with is the Dell XPS 13, 9350:
https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn/Dell/Dell_XPS_13_9350
i looked at the lenovo yoga 900: zowee, lenovo are unethical. they've locked the BIOS so that you can't switch the NVMe SSD out of RAID mode (so you can't even install windows from a windows CD), they've refused refunds to people who claim mis-selling, they're ACTIVELY working to release new BIOS updates that prevent and prohibit people from installing linux, and they're scrambling to constantly censor reports and complaints on their forum.
i also looked at the asus zenbook: fantastic machine.... except the 13in variant peaks at 12GB of RAM.
sony... have stopped doing laptops! that's the end of an era: i'm amazed...
now, before i go spending $USD 1500 of crowd-funding money (which is easily justifiable as it's absolutely essential that i have a working machine and a half-decent backup) i'd like to double-check with people if they know of anything better than the XPS 9350, both in terms of specification as well as support for the linux community from the manufacturer. dell appear to be cooperating, releasing BIOS updates that *actively* help linux users (as opposed to lenovo who do the complete opposite and then try to hide the fact, generally being incredibly evasive and unethical).
thoughts and suggestions appreciated for evaluation. the 9350's at the top of the list right now.
l.
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
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On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 12:29:00PM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
On 12/4/16, Franck Sinimalé franck@sinimale.fr wrote:
Hi all,
FYI they did not answer to my request since i live in France i guess, cool machines anyway !
unfortunately the LCD resolutions max out at 1920x1080. after having experienced a 2560x1600 LCD, where i can get *TEN* full 80x56 xterms side-by-side on one screen, or *two* web browsers full-screen 1200x800 next to *four* 80x56 xterms, or can do two 80x56 xterms and then openscad a whopping 1800x1600... or PCB CAD development 1200x1600 side-by-side with a PDF datasheet at again 1200x1600 instead of being forced to flip between the two.... *and it's portable*...
... once you've experienced that kind of development environment, a 1920x1080 LCD is a *MASSIVE* step backwards.
... can't do it, frank :)
System76 are about the only folk I can think of - they might be able to help because their bigger machines go up to 4k.
Otherwise, it's down to plugging in a monitor and keyboard when you get somewhere ...
All the best
AndyC
Luke,
if you do decide to go the DELL route, last time I checked, I had several friends at DELL all of whom could offer some employee discounts (obviously, not as good as the Mexico deal recently publicised). Let me know if I should send a query out to them to see if I can get an employee discount code for you.
Regards
Russell
On 4 December 2016 at 13:29, Andrew M.A. Cater amacater@galactic.demon.co.uk wrote:
On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 12:29:00PM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
On 12/4/16, Franck Sinimalé franck@sinimale.fr wrote:
Hi all,
FYI they did not answer to my request since i live in France i guess, cool machines anyway !
unfortunately the LCD resolutions max out at 1920x1080. after having experienced a 2560x1600 LCD, where i can get *TEN* full 80x56 xterms side-by-side on one screen, or *two* web browsers full-screen 1200x800 next to *four* 80x56 xterms, or can do two 80x56 xterms and then openscad a whopping 1800x1600... or PCB CAD development 1200x1600 side-by-side with a PDF datasheet at again 1200x1600 instead of being forced to flip between the two.... *and it's portable*...
... once you've experienced that kind of development environment, a 1920x1080 LCD is a *MASSIVE* step backwards.
... can't do it, frank :)
System76 are about the only folk I can think of - they might be able to help because their bigger machines go up to 4k.
Otherwise, it's down to plugging in a monitor and keyboard when you get somewhere ...
All the best
AndyC
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
yes please that would be really helpful russell.
andrew i looked at what system76 have: smallest is the 14in @ $699 which means its spec is nowhere near that of the dell xps 13 9350, the yoga pro or the zenbook(s). the machines you refer to that can do 4k are monster 15 and 17in, they'll be something insane like 3 possibly even 4kg in weight: more than twice over the weight budget.
the thing about ultrabooks is that they're quite specialist and unusual: they're not the sort of thing that you keep around "in stock" as their components are ridiculously specialist and expensive.
again: if it wasn't for the fact that i'm moving around so much, going to clients, staying in hotels and so on, i'd be happy to get something that was "luggable".
but, my requirements really are quite specific: high end QHD+ 13.3in ultrabooks fit them perfectly.
l.
On 12/4/16, Russell Hyer russell.hyer@gmail.com wrote:
Luke,
if you do decide to go the DELL route, last time I checked, I had several friends at DELL all of whom could offer some employee discounts (obviously, not as good as the Mexico deal recently publicised). Let me know if I should send a query out to them to see if I can get an employee discount code for you.
Regards
Russell
On 4 December 2016 at 13:29, Andrew M.A. Cater amacater@galactic.demon.co.uk wrote:
On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 12:29:00PM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
On 12/4/16, Franck Sinimalé franck@sinimale.fr wrote:
Hi all,
FYI they did not answer to my request since i live in France i guess, cool machines anyway !
unfortunately the LCD resolutions max out at 1920x1080. after having experienced a 2560x1600 LCD, where i can get *TEN* full 80x56 xterms side-by-side on one screen, or *two* web browsers full-screen 1200x800 next to *four* 80x56 xterms, or can do two 80x56 xterms and then openscad a whopping 1800x1600... or PCB CAD development 1200x1600 side-by-side with a PDF datasheet at again 1200x1600 instead of being forced to flip between the two.... *and it's portable*...
... once you've experienced that kind of development environment, a 1920x1080 LCD is a *MASSIVE* step backwards.
... can't do it, frank :)
System76 are about the only folk I can think of - they might be able to help because their bigger machines go up to 4k.
Otherwise, it's down to plugging in a monitor and keyboard when you get somewhere ...
All the best
AndyC
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
@Luke (I asked the question re the code, I'll see if I get a response)
On 4 December 2016 at 14:40, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
yes please that would be really helpful russell.
andrew i looked at what system76 have: smallest is the 14in @ $699 which means its spec is nowhere near that of the dell xps 13 9350, the yoga pro or the zenbook(s). the machines you refer to that can do 4k are monster 15 and 17in, they'll be something insane like 3 possibly even 4kg in weight: more than twice over the weight budget.
the thing about ultrabooks is that they're quite specialist and unusual: they're not the sort of thing that you keep around "in stock" as their components are ridiculously specialist and expensive.
again: if it wasn't for the fact that i'm moving around so much, going to clients, staying in hotels and so on, i'd be happy to get something that was "luggable".
but, my requirements really are quite specific: high end QHD+ 13.3in ultrabooks fit them perfectly.
l.
On 12/4/16, Russell Hyer russell.hyer@gmail.com wrote:
Luke,
if you do decide to go the DELL route, last time I checked, I had several friends at DELL all of whom could offer some employee discounts (obviously, not as good as the Mexico deal recently publicised). Let me know if I should send a query out to them to see if I can get an employee discount code for you.
Regards
Russell
On 4 December 2016 at 13:29, Andrew M.A. Cater amacater@galactic.demon.co.uk wrote:
On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 12:29:00PM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
On 12/4/16, Franck Sinimalé franck@sinimale.fr wrote:
Hi all,
FYI they did not answer to my request since i live in France i guess, cool machines anyway !
unfortunately the LCD resolutions max out at 1920x1080. after having experienced a 2560x1600 LCD, where i can get *TEN* full 80x56 xterms side-by-side on one screen, or *two* web browsers full-screen 1200x800 next to *four* 80x56 xterms, or can do two 80x56 xterms and then openscad a whopping 1800x1600... or PCB CAD development 1200x1600 side-by-side with a PDF datasheet at again 1200x1600 instead of being forced to flip between the two.... *and it's portable*...
... once you've experienced that kind of development environment, a 1920x1080 LCD is a *MASSIVE* step backwards.
... can't do it, frank :)
System76 are about the only folk I can think of - they might be able to help because their bigger machines go up to 4k.
Otherwise, it's down to plugging in a monitor and keyboard when you get somewhere ...
All the best
AndyC
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
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On 12/4/16, Russell Hyer russell.hyer@gmail.com wrote:
Hey Luke,
Well, obviously you know that there are a couple more hardware people like https://www.thinkpenguin.com/ in the US
my sponsor, so yes :) however, they focus on laptops around the $500 give-or-take mark, max screen resolution 1920x1080, weight around 2.5kg... the budget here is around *three times* that amount.
and novatech.co.uk in the UK,
yeah i like them... i'm not in the UK though.
but none of these are particularly interesting from a tech or friendliness perspective.
yeah although i don't like it, the lack of choice here in the libre department means i have to go "next level down" on priorities.
If it's just about having a machine that might be compromised whilst you bootstrap the new system up,
no, not at all: that's not a priority, here. i need something that i can do the 3D CAD and PCB cadwork on, as well as run two web browsers and do kernel and u-boot compiles
* openscad takes up about 1.5 GB of resident RAM * chrome takes up about 2GB * firefox is nuts and can end up taking up around 3-4 GB of *resident* memory all on its own * running the PCB CAD program in a VM takes up 2.5GB resident RAM
... we're well over 8GB already...
then, the Mac Mini would get my upvote (true, it's bad in some respects concerning freedom), but it does support multiple screens, but, then it is locked down (soldered RAM).
i need a decent portable machine as opposed to a desktop: i'm moving around too much to be able to do otherwise. i can't fit a macmini and a 4k HDMI screen, keyboard, mouse and power supplies in my Tumi backpack, otherwise i'd consider it.
Whatever you decide, I feel I should add that whilst my business is improving, I've still not been able to generate any more money for the project. (I could sell some items, though, though that's more worst case scenario)
it's really appreciated that you'd consider that, russell. with the crowdfunding money in the bank it's fine - no need to push yourself outside of self-sustainable finance. i can easily justify getting a second laptop (keeping the macbook pro as a spare) because without one, if the macbook pro fails the entire project completely stops dead for at least a week, maybe two, sorting things out. i can't have that happen.
l.
You could get a Gigabyte Aero 14: http://www.xoticpc.com/gigabyte-aero-14.html
2560x1440 14-inch screen, 1.9 kg, but has everything else you wanted at your price point.
There's also the AORUS X3 Plus PC3K4D: http://www.xoticpc.com/aorus-x3-plus-v6-pc3k4d.html
Still misses the weight budget, and is $2000, but it has a smaller higher-res screen and meets all your other expectations.
Sadly, you'll have to pay the Windows tax on either. :/
Have not fully read the rest of the thread (quickly skimmed -- I'm on a time budget, forgive me) -- but --
An external SSD is essentially a conglomerate of three separate parts. The SSD proper (always just a standard drive), the enclosure in which it is placed (with a USB/FireWire/eSATA host controller PCB), and the power brick or wall wart. Some (typically cheaper) enclosures substitute a second USB lead for the power supply.
Luke, have you opened your external SSD and verified that it is indeed the SSD itself which is at fault, and not the enclosure's controller board?
You can very easily get (probably easier than I can, since you're basically right there) what eBay calls a "USB IDE SATA" adapter (I call it a drive tester) which adapts IDE and SATA disks to USB. Those require a separate SATA-compatible power supply, or a brick terminating in a Molex connector, plus a Molex-to-SATA adapter. You may be able to find SATA-only versions of that which incorporate a power supply -- but those rely on a USB3 port to do their work, and probably won't work on a USB2 port. (There's a chance, with SSDs -- spinup on a notebook form factor platter drive is usually five watts, fully twice what a standard USB2 port can provide.) I don't know whether your Mac has USB3 or not -- as a general rule, I don't touch stuff from That Fruit Company that isn't beige or tan. (I have a IIgs.)
If it *is* the enclosure, the SSD will at least read, when paired with an adapter as described. I don't know about MacOS, but in Linux, if there's any trouble mounting a drive, the drive will be mounted as read-only (or not mounted at all). If it mounts 'ro' it's probably fine, just needs whatever Mac's equivalent of fsck is. Even if it doesn't mount -- run fsck or its equivalent -- a truly corrupt F/S will not mount.
Obviously, if it's the enclosure, don't go for the cheapest replacement you can buy. I've seen enclosures from eBay where if you don't hold the cable exactly right it disconnects the drive. Those are crap and you shouldn't buy one.
Phew, that was at least a textual footwall. Sorry about that, folks!
On 12/4/16, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
Have not fully read the rest of the thread (quickly skimmed -- I'm on a time budget, forgive me) -- but --
An external SSD is essentially a conglomerate of three separate parts. The SSD proper (always just a standard drive), the enclosure in which it is placed (with a USB/FireWire/eSATA host controller PCB), and the power brick or wall wart. Some (typically cheaper) enclosures substitute a second USB lead for the power supply.
Luke, have you opened your external SSD and verified that it is indeed the SSD itself which is at fault, and not the enclosure's controller board?
yep, that's the first thing i did. a little computer store at the back of one of the big supermarket buildings here had a USB3-to-SATA converter.
If it *is* the enclosure, the SSD will at least read, when paired with an adapter as described.
yep. it's not even visible. i then checked with a (lower-capacity 120GB) SSD and that came up fine.
l.
@luke -- what's the Mac version of fsck (command-line filesystem check, Windows' version is chkdsk) and did you run it? I've 'fixed' improperly-unmounted USB thumb drives with that command.
On Linux, where 'sdx' is your SSD, "fsck -a sdx" (no quotes!) followed by a punch of the ENTER key, will do good things, if it's just a corrupt filesystem. Corrupt filesystems are not mountable and won't show up in eg Thunar. (Sorry, I'm an XFCE kinda guy.) In Linux Mint (which I use) and probably other Ubuntu-based Linux derivatives, you have to run fsck as root, so prepend 'sudo' to that command for those.
On 12/4/16, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
@luke -- what's the Mac version of fsck (command-line filesystem check, Windows' version is chkdsk) and did you run it?
yep.
I've 'fixed' improperly-unmounted USB thumb drives with that command.
yep, i know what it does - it triggers an ioctl to the system which refreshes the partition table.
On Linux, where 'sdx' is your SSD, "fsck -a sdx" (no quotes!) followed by a punch of the ENTER key, will do good things, if it's just a corrupt filesystem.
all it does is hang at that point. the kingston 512gb drive really is completely f*****d.
l.
Only thing I can think of at that point, which, if you're still in the techy part of China, is actually reasonably possible - open the SSD and see if you can get a replacement controller chip and someone to put it down...
Replying on my phone here, please excuse any errors. This thing sometimes wants to think it's smarter than I am :(
okaaay, apparently there's a store called http://gplustore.com in luohu, shenzhen (right outside the border crossing from HK), which is listed as a distributor for the Aorus laptops. it's a bit weird: they appear to be a bricks-and-mortar presence for what is essentially a pure "online" operation.
i'm *really* liking the x3 plus v6 - the only thing is, it's essential that i find out if the NVMe can be flipped over to AHCI in the BIOS, and that Secure Boot can be disabled.
l.
On 12/4/16, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
On 12/4/16, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
@luke -- what's the Mac version of fsck (command-line filesystem check, Windows' version is chkdsk) and did you run it?
yep.
I've 'fixed' improperly-unmounted USB thumb drives with that command.
yep, i know what it does - it triggers an ioctl to the system which refreshes the partition table.
On Linux, where 'sdx' is your SSD, "fsck -a sdx" (no quotes!) followed by a punch of the ENTER key, will do good things, if it's just a corrupt filesystem.
all it does is hang at that point. the kingston 512gb drive really is completely f*****d.
l.
https://linux.slashdot.org/story/16/12/03/0727258/ask-slashdot-whats-the-bes...
ha, funny - someone posted on slashdot a near-identical question :)
On 12/4/16, Andrew Mike andrew@logomancy.net wrote:
You could get a Gigabyte Aero 14: http://www.xoticpc.com/gigabyte-aero-14.html
2560x1440 14-inch screen, 1.9 kg, but has everything else you wanted at your price point.
dang. up to 32gb DDR4 RAM. in a laptop. i'm very very tempted... the only thing is: although the current screen i'm using is 2560x1600, i just know damn well i'll miss the ... *goes to run python as a calculator*... 160 pixels. it makes the difference between being able to run 2 80x56 xterms one above the other.
There's also the AORUS X3 Plus PC3K4D: http://www.xoticpc.com/aorus-x3-plus-v6-pc3k4d.html
Still misses the weight budget, and is $2000, but it has a smaller higher-res screen and meets all your other expectations.
*splutter* http://www.aorus.com/Product/Spec/X3%20Plus%20v6 overclocking to 4ghz, up to 32gb DDR4 2400mhz RAM, *dual* PCIe SSDs, supports nvidia graphics cards up to *6* GB, 150 watt power supply, does it _really_ take dual batteries? wtf this is a _monster_!!
... i love it.
the fiscally-responsible thing to do would be to get a dell xps 13 9350. given that it's a path that's been trail-blazed already and there are software libre developers out there who've bought it, gone to the trouble of poking dell's support team with a stick, found out how to disable the (Reference-Design-by-default) RAID setting on the NVMe drives in the BIOS, and so on, it would be a lot less hassle.
*however*.... thinking it through... the only reason i said "16GB RAM" is because i didn't expect there to be *laptops* out there which could take up to 32GB RAM. i made the mistake of getting not enough memory once already.
tell you what i'll do: i'm going to register on their forums and make some enquiries.
Sadly, you'll have to pay the Windows tax on either. :/
*grumbles*...
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On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 11:15:20AM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
well-built, high spec'd and high-priced
I am happy owner of an M3 from eurocom.com, which, together with most of their machines, falls roughly into that category, too, but comes (at your choice) without operating system pre-installed. (I'm running gentoo GNU/Linux.)
Their philosophy is ``fully upgradeable'', so that may appeal to you. If I understand correctly, these are really Clevo machines; in Europe they are available under a different brand, which I forgot. (``Eurocom'' sits in Ottawa...)
If you are still in China, perhaps you can even find a direct way to buy a Clevo machine in Shenzhen or HK?
(The 13.3 inch M3 and M4 are not listed currently on the Eurocom main pages; I'd ask.)
(You brought at least one of those ThinkPenguin WiFi dongles? ;-)
Good luck!
Wolfram
On 12/4/16, Wolfram Kahl kahl@cas.mcmaster.ca wrote:
On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 11:15:20AM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
well-built, high spec'd and high-priced
I am happy owner of an M3 from eurocom.com, which, together with most of their machines, falls roughly into that category, too, but comes (at your choice) without operating system pre-installed.
yippee! :)
(I'm running gentoo GNU/Linux.)
Their philosophy is ``fully upgradeable'', so that may appeal to you.
yes it does.
If I understand correctly, these are really Clevo machines; in Europe they are available under a different brand, which I forgot. (``Eurocom'' sits in Ottawa...)
oo we like clevo. they're "generic".
If you are still in China, perhaps you can even find a direct way to buy a Clevo machine in Shenzhen or HK?
(The 13.3 inch M3 and M4 are not listed currently on the Eurocom main pages; I'd ask.)
i will - it's a little awkward to operate on 10-15k/sec internet connection (there's another couple of world-wide DDOS attacks ongoing at the moment, f***s everything up here), what's the LCD resolution on the M3 and M4?
(You brought at least one of those ThinkPenguin WiFi dongles? ;-)
yehh :)
On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 07:16:34PM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
(The 13.3 inch M3 and M4 are not listed currently on the Eurocom main pages; I'd ask.)
i will - it's a little awkward to operate on 10-15k/sec internet connection (there's another couple of world-wide DDOS attacks ongoing at the moment, f***s everything up here), what's the LCD resolution on the M3 and M4?
M3:
http://www.eurocom.com/ec/configure(2,242,0)ec
Currently lists only 1920x1080; when I bought it, they had two higher-resolution options, of which I ordered one, but when they received it, it did not work (``looked horrible''), so we downgraded the order to 1920x1080. (Higher resolution would probably not be as useful to me anymore anyways --- my eyes are getting older.)
M4:
http://www.eurocom.com/ec/configure(2,350,0)ec
offers (offered?) also 2560x1440.
Eurocom's current offerings below 15.6" are rather thin IMO; at 15.6" however, they have several (heavy) options to get 4K.
Wolfram
2016-12-04 12:15 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net:
- 2560x1600 or greater resolution LCD (CAD development)
- 13in size (has to fit in my backpack)
- below 1.5kg weight (carryable)
- 16GB of RAM (i'm maxing out the 8GB)
- 512GB SSD (i've maxed out the 256GB drive)
- cooperative manufacturer that hasn't caved in to microsoft
cartelling business practices
That's a pretty short list for those specs: https://tweakers.net/categorie/496/laptops/producten/#filter:RY1BCoMwEEXvMms...
Dismissed M$ stamp, that was not a selectable option ;-)
i looked at the lenovo yoga 900: zowee, lenovo are unethical. they've
locked the BIOS so that you can't switch the NVMe SSD out of RAID mode (so you can't even install windows from a windows CD), they've refused refunds to people who claim mis-selling, they're ACTIVELY working to release new BIOS updates that prevent and prohibit people from installing linux, and they're scrambling to constantly censor reports and complaints on their forum.
I Thought that issue was only for the "Signature" certified ones and they already caved to the shitstorm.
http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/44694.html
http://support.lenovo.com/se/nl/products/Laptops-and-netbooks/Yoga-Series/yo...
However Lenovo's direction is clearly becoming that of selling machine. Whitout regard of what happens after sale. They've bough Motorola in hopes to copy the succes recipe but their own rotten mobile department killed it instantly.
My view on the succes of motorola: Bugetphone's with high enoug spec's and updates! Now: Pricey phones with not enough specs to rival the rest in price range and zero updates or very tardy.
You are not done with a product once it has left the store. When a product leaves that store it becomes a showcase for your company. And that can be good or bad!
And a good customer support does not fix that.
i also looked at the asus zenbook: fantastic machine.... except the 13in variant peaks at 12GB of RAM.
sony... have stopped doing laptops! that's the end of an era: i'm amazed...
now, before i go spending $USD 1500 of crowd-funding money (which is easily justifiable as it's absolutely essential that i have a working machine and a half-decent backup) i'd like to double-check with people if they know of anything better than the XPS 9350, both in terms of specification as well as support for the linux community from the manufacturer. dell appear to be cooperating, releasing BIOS updates that *actively* help linux users (as opposed to lenovo who do the complete opposite and then try to hide the fact, generally being incredibly evasive and unethical).
thoughts and suggestions appreciated for evaluation. the 9350's at the top of the list right now.
l.
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hiya mike thanks for the comprehensive insights.
still investigating the aorus forums, there does exist a thread where people are attempting to install various flavours of linux, and are struggling quite a lot, basically. one person is running lubuntu in a VM under windows and the machine is hanging (not the same hardware as i want to get: older and the 15in version), another person is compiling the nvidia drivers and they're getting kernel panics (indicative of hardware memory errors).
however, there is another person here http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/showthread.php?p=5388556 who seems to have got slackware dual-booted and is actually happy.
*sigh* argh i can just feel that, after thinking it through, 16GB simply isn't going to be enough, long-term.
l.
2016-12-05 11:55 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net:
*sigh* argh i can just feel that, after thinking it through, 16GB simply isn't going to be enough, long-term.
How about using a lighter/smaller laptop and a "mini" desktop as a server, SSH/VNC. Like an Intel NUC
Asus ZenBook UX305CA-FB649T https://tweakers.net/pricewatch/656079/asus-zenbook-ux305ca-fb649t.html (13,3" (3200x1800 IPS), 128GB (ssd), 1,2kg, €699) Shuttle XPC Nano NC02U https://tweakers.net/pricewatch/662421/shuttle-xpc-nano-nc02u.html (Max 32GiB Ram, Intel Celeron 3855U, 0.4 kg, €129,-)
Small desktops capable of at least 32GiB RAM https://tweakers.net/categorie/713/pcs/producten/#filter:PYuxCsIwFEX_5c4Rkqb...
https://tweakers.net/categorie/326/barebones/producten/#filter:PYxNCsIwFITvM...
Laptops with adquate screen resolution: https://tweakers.net/categorie/496/laptops/producten/#filter:PY3LCoMwEEX_Zda...
P.S. Look at ram compression. Browsers are quite bloated in RAM usage these days.
l.
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On 12/5/16, mike.valk@gmail.com mike.valk@gmail.com wrote:
2016-12-05 11:55 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net:
*sigh* argh i can just feel that, after thinking it through, 16GB simply isn't going to be enough, long-term.
How about using a lighter/smaller laptop and a "mini" desktop as a server, SSH/VNC. Like an Intel NUC
nice idea... can't do it. remember, i would have to carry the mini desktop as a server, plus its power supply, plus network cables, in my backpack, setting it up at the factory, or at a client, or at a hotel, or a supplier, every single time.
plus, openscad, which is heavy on the 3D OpenGL side, simply wouldn't work over X11.
Asus ZenBook UX305CA-FB649T https://tweakers.net/pricewatch/656079/asus-zenbook-ux305ca-fb649t.html (13,3" (3200x1800 IPS), 128GB (ssd), 1,2kg, €699) Shuttle XPC Nano NC02U
damnit if they could do up to 16GB of RAM instead of being restricted to 12 i'd consider it, based on the lower price.
P.S. Look at ram compression. Browsers are quite bloated in RAM usage these days.
tried it: it failed spectacularly, trashing the performance completely for general use, and, worse, actually made matters worse by taking up real RAM.
Just my 2 cents:
From what I've been gathering, Luke, this is the situation: you are used to a very high spec setup capable of really large amounts of multitasking and don't want to give up your current way of doing things, so you are looking for a new laptop capable of this. There's nothing wrong with that if you can find it. But maybe it would be worthwhile to adjust your workflow so that it doesn't need an ultra-HD screen and 16GB+ of RAM? There must be some way you can achieve that.
These are the thoughts I have, in particular:
* From what I understand, you use a DE that basically tiles all of the programs you have open into whatever screen space you have, right? Have you ever tried GNOME? That might be a good replacement for that if you can get used to it.
* Is it really necessary to have all of those programs open at the same time?
* Is it really necessary to use Chrome or Firefox? There are more lightweight browsers out there, including text-based ones like elinks. Disabling JavaScript can also help a lot with performance in general.
* What if you had one laptop for openscad and other heavy or important stuff, and another, cheaper laptop for Web browsing and other stuff like that?
* I'm wondering about that SSD. Are hard drive speeds really so bad that you need one? Big SSDs are much more expensive than big hard drives. My experience with a hard drive is that it's mostly start-up times that are affected, so what I tend to do is log in and then go do something else while everything loads, and then use the suspend to RAM feature if I need to conserve battery for a short period of time.
I'd also like to point out that learning to live with less than you're used to would be really good for your public image, since after all, the hardware you'll be selling for quite some time is nowhere near those capabilities. ;) As it is now, for example, if someone says that what you're selling isn't good enough, they have you as an example to back that claim up. But if you manage to reduce your needs and eventually meet what EOMA hardware can achieve, then you would have your own example to refute that, and you would even have experience that you could use to advise people on what sorts of changes to make to the way they do things. Food for thought.
On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 10:11 AM, Julie Marchant onpon4@riseup.net wrote:
Just my 2 cents:
From what I've been gathering, Luke, this is the situation: you are used to a very high spec setup capable of really large amounts of multitasking and don't want to give up your current way of doing things, so you are looking for a new laptop capable of this. There's nothing wrong with that if you can find it. But maybe it would be worthwhile to adjust your workflow so that it doesn't need an ultra-HD screen and 16GB+ of RAM? There must be some way you can achieve that.
These are the thoughts I have, in particular:
- From what I understand, you use a DE that basically tiles all of the
programs you have open into whatever screen space you have, right? Have you ever tried GNOME? That might be a good replacement for that if you can get used to it.
- Is it really necessary to have all of those programs open at the same
time?
- Is it really necessary to use Chrome or Firefox? There are more
lightweight browsers out there, including text-based ones like elinks. Disabling JavaScript can also help a lot with performance in general.
- What if you had one laptop for openscad and other heavy or important
stuff, and another, cheaper laptop for Web browsing and other stuff like that?
- I'm wondering about that SSD. Are hard drive speeds really so bad that
you need one? Big SSDs are much more expensive than big hard drives. My experience with a hard drive is that it's mostly start-up times that are affected, so what I tend to do is log in and then go do something else while everything loads, and then use the suspend to RAM feature if I need to conserve battery for a short period of time.
I'd also like to point out that learning to live with less than you're used to would be really good for your public image, since after all, the hardware you'll be selling for quite some time is nowhere near those capabilities. ;) As it is now, for example, if someone says that what you're selling isn't good enough, they have you as an example to back that claim up. But if you manage to reduce your needs and eventually meet what EOMA hardware can achieve, then you would have your own example to refute that, and you would even have experience that you could use to advise people on what sorts of changes to make to the way they do things. Food for thought.
The real solution is to get EOMA-200 rolling with 32GB of RAM :).
-- Julie Marchant https://onpon4.github.io
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On 12/5/16, Adam Van Ymeren adam.vany@gmail.com wrote:
The real solution is to get EOMA-200 rolling with 32GB of RAM :).
yeah :)
gotta redo that. with 4k displays now prevalent, i think it's going to be necessary to add either MIPI, eDP or both to EOMA-200.
l.
On 12/5/16, Julie Marchant onpon4@riseup.net wrote:
Just my 2 cents:
appreciated, julie. lots of factors involved: i've been through them, however it always helps to go over them in case i missed something.
From what I've been gathering, Luke, this is the situation: you are used to a very high spec setup capable of really large amounts of multitasking
plus moving around several times a month (at the moment), giving presentations, sorting out problems whilst directly at the factory (including editing the PCB CAD files on-site at mike's factory), and so on.
and don't want to give up your current way of doing things,
it's not that i "don't want to give up the current way of doing things", it would be "a massive inconvenience and/or simply not practical to fulfil the project's goals" without a high-end laptop.
here's the thing: because i *know* that there's a tool which makes life easier, *not* having access to it is just so utterly frustrating that i will go completely nuts. to get some idea of the kind of feeling, if you are not ambidextrous, move your mouse to the *opposite* side, hold it exclusively with thumb and middle finger (no other finger contact), give yourself the usual amount of time to complete a task and go.
or, my other favourite one is: if you're used to typing (touch-typing especially), go try using a microsoft windows system. the feeling of... sheer desperation and frustration... it's like having your legs kicked out from under you, or having your legs amputated: you *know* that it should be possible to configure that network or do whatever-it-is-you-want, it *could* be achieved so much faster... *if* you had linux instead of windows... and you've *no idea what to do*.
so you are looking for a new laptop capable of this. There's nothing wrong with that if you can find it. But maybe it would be worthwhile to adjust your workflow so that it doesn't need an ultra-HD screen and 16GB+ of RAM? There must be some way you can achieve that.
i'm constantly using "killall -STOP {insert program(s)}" to temporarily suspend certain applications, to get it down, and to stop the macbook pro from thrashing its nuts off on its flakey SSD.
what i didn't mention before is that one of the consequences of those continuous resets of the SSD is that if it goes into swap space, the whole system can grind to a halt really really fast: loadavg smacks up to around 12, the mouse cursor refresh rate is about once per second, selecting an xterm into which to type "killall -9 firefox" or whatever it is can take several minutes... it's pretty insane and it happens regularly.
no, i really do genuinely need two web browsers open (especially now that i'm in china) - one is configured for the VPN, the other is not. i do genuinely need 20 tabs open in one browser: i've stopped opening 200+ in firefox but even after a week i'm easily back up to 50 tabs. the vim bindings (pentadactyl) help here a lot: i can issue ":restart" and it gets the memory back down to manageable levels.
no i can't reduce the amount of RAM that qemu uses. that would make the CAD programs crash.
no i can't reduce the number of parts in the laptop 3D CAD casework.
no i can't not have PDF datasheets open at the same time as the CAD.
no i can't not have openscad open at the same time as the CAD PCB, because as i've learned it's *ABSOLUTELY* necessary to develop the 3D CAD at the same time as the PCB CAD...
and so on and so forth. it's a hugely complex inter-dependent set of factors, here.
These are the thoughts I have, in particular:
- From what I understand, you use a DE that basically tiles all of the
programs you have open into whatever screen space you have, right?
no, i use fvwm2 with 24 virtual screens in a 6x4 layout, non-tiled, each virtual screen dedicated to a particular purpose.
tiling prevents and prohibits me from finding the applications that i need. it also prevents and prohibits me from having crucial and critical information simultaneously on-screen.
this is REALLY important to have a datasheet for example side-by-side with the CAD program.
tiling - or having a lower-resolution screen - would result in less information, less detail, and thus mistakes. which when they cost $2k a time for a PCB, that's generally bad.
so i make sure that inter-related programs are accessible side-by-side, so that i can see as much as possible all at once.
semi-inter-related tasks i keep on separate virtual screens that are close by each other. for example, the web browsers are both on screen (2,1) whilst xchat is *underneath* that, on screen (2,2). screen (1,1) contains skype (and now zoom.us). screen (1,2) contains audio management (alsamixer instances) and wicd-gtk (WIFI management). screen (3,2) contains the PCB CAD program - not full-screen but running at 2500x1500 so that i have juuust enough space to pull the xterm(s) behind it to the front, and also to see the clock and FVWM 6x4 window that i've pinned to the bottom right corner. screen (3,1) contains gerbv, which i use to double-check the gerber output from the CAD program below it in screen (3,2). screens (4,2) and sometimes (3,3) is where i open up datasheets that i'm inspecting...
there's also places for compiling code (on *different* targets, remember? so i can have one virtual screen for the A20, and another for the RK3288....) ....
it's a hugely complex setup that took me around 12 years to refine.
Have you ever tried GNOME?
fuck no :) apart from anything, on a 256gb SSD i simply don't have the space for it. last time i checked i have literally *millions* of files on this laptop, and i am constantly removing prorams to make space. libreoffice went _years_ ago, for example. i had some games on here: they've all gone, now.
by contrast: fvwm2 is an 8 *megabyte* install size. gnome is... what... several hundred megabytes? latest versions force you to use wayland? and systemd?? fuck that!! absolutely no way i'm tolerating that. plus it's designed for a totally different purpose: "office" style work.
That might be a good replacement for that if you can get used to it.
fvwm2 starts up in under 1 second. i run various xterms then type the command that i need in the xterm, position it, and leave it alone.
- Is it really necessary to have all of those programs open at the same
time?
incredibly... yes.
- Is it really necessary to use Chrome or Firefox?
for searching for datasheets, accessing email, accessing various forums (i've lost count of the number of forums i have accounts for - i was tracking around FIFTY just during the crowd-funding campaign alone)... yes.
There are more lightweight browsers out there, including text-based ones like elinks. Disabling JavaScript can also help a lot with performance in general.
a lot of the forums i access for information and for communicating require javascript, and require passwords (and captchas). i use the browsers to remember the passwords...
i've always been meaning to try disabling javascript: i did actually try netsurf for a while... it didn't go very well.
- What if you had one laptop for openscad and other heavy or important
stuff, and another, cheaper laptop for Web browsing and other stuff like that?
that actually sounds like a good idea... then i realised/remembered that i often cut/paste sections of code and recipes (e.g. for doing the firefly rk3288 development board setup) so that i don't make mistakes.
i don't "consume" web browsing information like other people do. i don't sit there larfing and/or msgging and/or lol-ing on facebook or twitter, i actually need to transfer information quickly and accurately back-and-forth from web pages and web resources, including PDFs, commands, and so on.
under that scenario, separating the two (into two machines) is unfortunately massively inconvenient... and also takes up space... and would mean that i would be carrying around two laptops plus network connectivity equipment plus chargers to hotels, client sites, suppliers sites and factories.
- I'm wondering about that SSD. Are hard drive speeds really so bad that
you need one?
again it's down to what i'm now used to (and i've done the research so know what to look for. as in i was authorised to do a MONTH of destructive testing of SSDs at a former company) - http://lkcl.net/reports/ssd_analysis.html - basically don't get anything other than Intel S3500s or Samsung EVO Pro series drives and you'll be ok. anything else *is* guaranteed to fail. i really mean *guaranteed*.
Big SSDs are much more expensive than big hard drives.
i don't need huge - certainly not 1TB. 512gb should do the job, now. 256gb i've learned is barely ok. i'm still running on gmail because i have NINE gigabytes of email that i can't afford to move off of it because i haven't enough space.
if it improves my working procedures and operational effectiveness - bear in mind i'm in front of this machine for 10+ hours a day - then it's paid for itself easily.
also, remember: i've done power-loss testing on SSDs (and an HDD just for a laugh) - the HDD fared just as badly as the (consumer-grade) SSDs. only the professional-grade SSDs with *decent* firmware and sufficient supercapacitors were able to cope with random power-loss events reliably.
the Intel S3500 that i tested i ran six and a half THOUSAND power-loss events over a period of 3 days, with several terabytes of data written and read it didn't lose a SINGLE BYTE. that's pretty incredible. by "power-loss" i mean i added a 12v relay into the power line, set up random and sequential writes at 30mb/sec and literally cut the power WHILST THE SATA CABLE WAS STILL CONNECTED AND TRANSFERRING DATA.
every other drive tested failed within SECONDS to minutes. some failed so badly that they corrupted their own firmware sectors, resulting in them being completely bricked beyond recovery. it was an eye-opening experience that had the SSD manufacturers a leeetle bit scared. which is a good thing.
My experience with a hard drive is that it's mostly start-up times that are affected, so what I tend to do is log in and then go do something else while everything loads, and then use the suspend to RAM feature if I need to conserve battery for a short period of time.
i leave machines on permanently (to protect the processor as much as possible from thermal shock: excessive temperature changes cause micro-cracks to develop in the substrate and the ceramic packaging), and use suspend-to-disk for moving between locations. suspend to ram fails on the macbook pro: i tried it and had to recover it by holding down the power button until it hard-rebooted.
I'd also like to point out that learning to live with less than you're used to would be really good for your public image, since after all, the hardware you'll be selling for quite some time is nowhere near those capabilities. ;)
yeahhhh, this came up a few years ago (particularly when i had to justify buying the macbook pro). it's a son-of-a-word but the logic that works is that i anticipated to "amortise" the high cost f the laptop over an extended lifetime. i *was* expecting this machine to last 5-8 years, but it's got too many problems which are tickling my "risk analysis" brain-cells.
so the logic goes: environmental damage / cost is directly proportional to monetary cost (yes i know, the disposal and environmental cleanup cost is not included directly... but go with it...)
therefore, if a product can be kept in useful service indefinitely, then *regardless* of the initial high cost, you're not doing as much environmental damage as you would be by buying say... budget laptops year after year.
now, here's the thing: the target market for these eco-conscious products require *WAY* less computation and memory resources than is needed for their actual development. if you asked any CAD designer making 500mhz MIPS IoT router products to actually *use* those 500mhz MIPS processors to run the CAD software, they'd look at you like you had 3 eyes or something.
no: the PCB CAD software i'm using (which i run in a windows VM) doesn't even *run* on ARM-based products. the A20 maxes out at 2GB of RAM: i've had to increase the x86_64 VM to 2.5 GB memory allocation to stop it from thrashing and then crashing (swapspace in qemu is a REALLY bad idea, even under qemu-kvm).
no i cannot switch over to KiCAD: it's pure shit, it's that simple. there's a list of features which are entirely missing, and there's a set of user "expectation" errors that actually DESTROY your work if you quotes happen not to know EXACTLY what the hell the KiCAD developers did quotes.
i've tried talking to them about these errors that they've made which regularly destroy people's work: they're not interested. so.... forget it. five years ago now i tried - i really did - but... no. absolutely not. waste of time trying to do complex CAD work.
As it is now, for example, if someone says that what you're selling isn't good enough, they have you as an example to back that claim up. But if you manage to reduce your needs and eventually meet what EOMA hardware can achieve, then you would have your own example to refute that, and you would even have experience that you could use to advise people on what sorts of changes to make to the way they do things. Food for thought.
ok. if i was someone who actually *did* standard office work, then i'd be able to do that. if there were people who *also* needed to do advanced PCB CAD and 3D CAD design work, and there were EOMA-compliant products (affordable ones as in affordable to *design*) available, yes i could recommend them.
you have to bear in mind that the cost of developing the more powerful (intel-based) PCBs is an absolute king's ransom, julie. the normal cost quoted by e.g. Foxconn for the development of a new intel or AMD motherboard is around $USD 40,000 to $USD 50,000. a laptop is around $USD 250,000.
now, along comes me and makes an eco-conscious 3d-printed laptop for *only* around $USD 60,000 including my time in the Netherlands for 2 years, which my sponsor paid for. the A20 6-layer PCB costs only around $1700 for 5 samples to be made up. that's PEANUTS!!
... but it's *only* possible because i've selected such low-end and low-power processors... processors which are in NO WAY capable of running the kind of 2D or 3D CAD software which was used to design them. it's just too specialist, julie.
now, that having been said, *if* i was happy to compromise on the RK3288 and run the MALI proprietary libraries, i *MIGHT* be able to run openscad successfully on the upcoming EOMA68-RK3288.
yes, basically, i *really* do want to move to actually developing on the actual products that i'm developing... but it's going to be several years yet before that's possible. i may have to create a new standard (one with a higher spec and a larger power budget) just to be able to do it, but the financial development budget *also* needs to be larger...
... yes really all of this has genuinely been carefully considered and thought through, and a "self-bootstrap" plan put in place. start with the lower-to-mid-end, get that up and running and profits in, and work upwards.
woo! big post :) brain slightly melted now so will take a break.
l.
by contrast: fvwm2 is an 8 *megabyte* install size. gnome is... what... several hundred megabytes? latest versions force you to use wayland? and systemd?? fuck that!! absolutely no way i'm tolerating that.
GNOME does not force you to use Wayland. I don't know where you got this idea from. Wayland is still supported experimentally (X is used by default, Wayland support is quite buggy) last time I checked. As for systemd, GNOME requires logind, but not the entire systemd package.
a lot of the forums i access for information and for communicating require javascript, and require passwords (and captchas). i use the browsers to remember the passwords...
i've always been meaning to try disabling javascript: i did actually try netsurf for a while... it didn't go very well.
On that note, I'd recommend for Firefox (if that's what you use) an extension called QuickJS, which gives you a button in the toolbar to enable and disable JavaScript.
ok. if i was someone who actually *did* standard office work, then i'd be able to do that. if there were people who *also* needed to do advanced PCB CAD and 3D CAD design work, and there were EOMA-compliant products (affordable ones as in affordable to *design*) available, yes i could recommend them.
To be clear, I wasn't suggesting trying to do your work on an A20 card, or anything else you produce in the next few years. That would be absurd. More that maybe it would be a good idea to optimize things so that you don't have to keep upgrading and eventually an EOMA card of some sort can catch up.
It seems even just managing to reduce your screen need so that a 1080p screen would suffice would be a huge help. Then you could just focus on getting a multi-core system with lots of RAM and a big hard drive (or SSD).
By the way, have you considered turning off swap? Linux will automatically terminate programs when there just isn't any RAM left, so that would at least prevent your system from slowing to a crawl. Also, using swap on an SSD is probably really terrible for the SSD. I don't know if you can control what programs get closed when that happens, though.
Julie Marchant:
On that note, I'd recommend for Firefox (if that's what you use) an extension called QuickJS, which gives you a button in the toolbar to enable and disable JavaScript.
I suggest uMatrix: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/umatrix/
In whitelist mode it blocks all 3rd party requests and you can block 1st party requests too.
On 12/5/16, Julie Marchant onpon4@riseup.net wrote:
by contrast: fvwm2 is an 8 *megabyte* install size. gnome is... what... several hundred megabytes? latest versions force you to use wayland? and systemd?? fuck that!! absolutely no way i'm tolerating that.
GNOME does not force you to use Wayland. I don't know where you got this idea from. Wayland is still supported experimentally (X is used by default, Wayland support is quite buggy) last time I checked. As for systemd, GNOME requires logind, but not the entire systemd package.
that requires libsystemd, which i refuse to have on any machine that i am managing. there seems to be something desperately wrong with how gnome (and systemd) are being developed and funded: i can't put my finger on it, but i can tell that there's something really, really wrong.
that and the work-efficiency level of my using gnome is a *reduction* not an increase... no. cannot and will not do it. i won't even put average end-users on gnome: i go to a *lot* of trouble to install TDE for my clients.
To be clear, I wasn't suggesting trying to do your work on an A20 card, or anything else you produce in the next few years. That would be absurd. More that maybe it would be a good idea to optimize things so that you don't have to keep upgrading and eventually an EOMA card of some sort can catch up.
it'll require an x86-compatible processor or a hardware-accelerated VM capable of running x86 instructions (such as the MIPS64 ICT-designed china-state-sponsored Loongson 3H), because i need to run x86 windows (tried wine: spectacular fail). that means it's going to be several years. by that time, 8GB of RAM should be insanely low cost and should be the "norm".
It seems even just managing to reduce your screen need so that a 1080p screen would suffice would be a huge help.
can't do it.... purely and simply because i now *know* that i would be more efficient and effective with a larger resolution screen.
By the way, have you considered turning off swap?
yes. tried it. didn't go so well.
Linux will automatically terminate programs when there just isn't any RAM left,
... exactly. it actively prevented and prohibited me from being able to simultaneously run the applications that i needed in order to work effectively and efficiently.
so that would at least prevent your system from slowing to a crawl. Also, using swap on an SSD is probably really terrible for the SSD.
it seems to be ok up to a point on the macbook pro one, but beyond a certain point the SSD appears to go into "maintenance" for up to a few seconds at a time, ceasing to deal with writes and reads. generally this is bad :)
I don't know if you can control what programs get closed when that happens, though.
exactly. it's not worth investigating if i need the programs running. if they're running, *i* can choose to do killall -STOP {progname} temporarily, which i do regularly, followed by killall -CONT later when i want it re-enabled. not ideal, but workable.
l.
On 12/06/2016 01:05 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
it seems to be ok up to a point on the macbook pro one, but beyond a certain point the SSD appears to go into "maintenance" for up to a few seconds at a time, ceasing to deal with writes and reads. generally this is bad :)
That's not what I meant. Flash memory (which most SSDs use) has a definite limit to the number of writes that can be performed on it. Once that limit is reached, it's garbage. Swap being used on a Flash-based SSD may very well be the quickest way to push it to the end of its life for the same reason it slows your system down to a crawl: it's constant disk writing. Having very little empty space while you're doing this (preventing wear leveling from being as effective) would make this even worse.
@Luke those friends @DELL (Ireland) haven't picked up the phone/email, so I don't think I'll be able to help on that front (though they might make a Treppenwitz reply)
R
On 6 December 2016 at 18:25, Julie Marchant onpon4@riseup.net wrote:
On 12/06/2016 01:05 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
it seems to be ok up to a point on the macbook pro one, but beyond a certain point the SSD appears to go into "maintenance" for up to a few seconds at a time, ceasing to deal with writes and reads. generally this is bad :)
That's not what I meant. Flash memory (which most SSDs use) has a definite limit to the number of writes that can be performed on it. Once that limit is reached, it's garbage. Swap being used on a Flash-based SSD may very well be the quickest way to push it to the end of its life for the same reason it slows your system down to a crawl: it's constant disk writing. Having very little empty space while you're doing this (preventing wear leveling from being as effective) would make this even worse.
-- Julie Marchant https://onpon4.github.io
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net writes:
On 12/5/16, Julie Marchant onpon4@riseup.net wrote:
by contrast: fvwm2 is an 8 *megabyte* install size. gnome is... what... several hundred megabytes? latest versions force you to use wayland? and systemd?? fuck that!! absolutely no way i'm tolerating that.
GNOME does not force you to use Wayland. I don't know where you got this idea from. Wayland is still supported experimentally (X is used by default, Wayland support is quite buggy) last time I checked. As for systemd, GNOME requires logind, but not the entire systemd package.
that requires libsystemd, which i refuse to have on any machine that i am managing.
I really think that you should draw a line between libsystemd0 and systemd itself (whether running as init or not).
One of the functions that libsystemd provides is the ability to check whether systemd is available, so if you want there to be a vibrant ecosystem of packages that do not require systemd, then it's probably worth encouraging people to write programs that check if systemd is available, and then behave sensibly if it is not.
The alternative forces the systemd refuseniks to fork every package that might find any (even optional) use for systemd services, which a) there is not sufficient manpower for, and b) removes any pressure for the upstream to put effort into accommodating your needs, so they don't bother to maintain/add the conditional code.
That said, I don't have a lot of time for Gnome either, but that might be because a) I prefer Xmonad so I'm not their target audience, and b) I run Debian, and we're making life difficult for Gnome maintainers by continuing to ensure that using systemd as init is optional (unlike most other distros), and also constraining systemd when it is running as init to be backwards compatible with sysvinit in various ways, which means that there are things that Gnome can safely assume on the likes of Fedora which might not be true on a particular Debian install, so I guess Gnome on Debian has interesting little bugs that don't appear elsewhere.
If everyone that doesn't like systemd runs screaming away from Debian, shouting about libsystemd0, and doesn't bother to report bugs where our ambition to support other inits falls short, then they just ensure that the future they fear comes to pass.
A more nuanced response might be wise.
Cheers, Phil.
On 07/12/2016 09:07, Philip Hands wrote:
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net writes:
On 12/5/16, Julie Marchant onpon4@riseup.net wrote:
by contrast: fvwm2 is an 8 *megabyte* install size. gnome is... what... several hundred megabytes? latest versions force you to use wayland? and systemd?? fuck that!! absolutely no way i'm tolerating that.
GNOME does not force you to use Wayland. I don't know where you got this idea from. Wayland is still supported experimentally (X is used by default, Wayland support is quite buggy) last time I checked. As for systemd, GNOME requires logind, but not the entire systemd package.
that requires libsystemd, which i refuse to have on any machine that i am managing.
I really think that you should draw a line between libsystemd0 and systemd itself (whether running as init or not).
One of the functions that libsystemd provides is the ability to check whether systemd is available, so if you want there to be a vibrant ecosystem of packages that do not require systemd, then it's probably worth encouraging people to write programs that check if systemd is available, and then behave sensibly if it is not.
The alternative forces the systemd refuseniks to fork every package that might find any (even optional) use for systemd services, which a) there is not sufficient manpower for, and b) removes any pressure for the upstream to put effort into accommodating your needs, so they don't bother to maintain/add the conditional code.
That said, I don't have a lot of time for Gnome either, but that might be because a) I prefer Xmonad so I'm not their target audience, and b) I run Debian, and we're making life difficult for Gnome maintainers by continuing to ensure that using systemd as init is optional (unlike most other distros), and also constraining systemd when it is running as init to be backwards compatible with sysvinit in various ways, which means that there are things that Gnome can safely assume on the likes of Fedora which might not be true on a particular Debian install, so I guess Gnome on Debian has interesting little bugs that don't appear elsewhere.
If everyone that doesn't like systemd runs screaming away from Debian, shouting about libsystemd0, and doesn't bother to report bugs where our ambition to support other inits falls short, then they just ensure that the future they fear comes to pass.
Wow, that last paragraph is the height of arrogance. Choice, long may it live.
2016-12-07 10:56 GMT+01:00 Michael Howard mike@dewberryfields.co.uk:
On 07/12/2016 09:07, Philip Hands wrote:
If everyone that doesn't like systemd runs screaming away from Debian, shouting about libsystemd0, and doesn't bother to report bugs where our ambition to support other inits falls short, then they just ensure that the future they fear comes to pass.
Wow, that last paragraph is the height of arrogance. Choice, long may it
live.
I fail to see the arrogance in that paragraph. That's a simple cause and effect. If you don't point out an issue, nothing can be done about it. Simple logic to me. If enough issues are unreported things simply become unusable. This relates to every sense of community.
Since we're dealing with shared code, most of the issues in Debian occur in other distro's as well.
Since debian usually holds "older" versions. Frequently a backport fix is needed to fix the issue. But maintainers need to know abaout the issue first.
And I didn't read that Phil says you're not allowed to choose differently. Merley the consequence of the choice not reporting your issue, before leaving, has future consequences.
-- Mike Howard
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"mike.valk@gmail.com" mike.valk@gmail.com writes:
2016-12-07 10:56 GMT+01:00 Michael Howard mike@dewberryfields.co.uk:
On 07/12/2016 09:07, Philip Hands wrote:
If everyone that doesn't like systemd runs screaming away from Debian, shouting about libsystemd0, and doesn't bother to report bugs where our ambition to support other inits falls short, then they just ensure that the future they fear comes to pass.
Wow, that last paragraph is the height of arrogance. Choice, long may it
live.
I fail to see the arrogance in that paragraph. That's a simple cause and effect. If you don't point out an issue, nothing can be done about it. Simple logic to me. If enough issues are unreported things simply become unusable. This relates to every sense of community.
Since we're dealing with shared code, most of the issues in Debian occur in other distro's as well.
Since debian usually holds "older" versions. Frequently a backport fix is needed to fix the issue. But maintainers need to know abaout the issue first.
And I didn't read that Phil says you're not allowed to choose differently. Merley the consequence of the choice not reporting your issue, before leaving, has future consequences.
The inclusion of the word "screaming" was probably not helpful if I wanted to get as level-headed a reading of what I wrote as you just gave it -- thanks to you for reading past that, and apologies to all for the emotive language.
Cheers, Phil.
On 12/7/16, Philip Hands phil@hands.com wrote:
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net writes:
On 12/5/16, Julie Marchant onpon4@riseup.net wrote:
by contrast: fvwm2 is an 8 *megabyte* install size. gnome is... what... several hundred megabytes? latest versions force you to use wayland? and systemd?? fuck that!! absolutely no way i'm tolerating that.
GNOME does not force you to use Wayland. I don't know where you got this idea from. Wayland is still supported experimentally (X is used by default, Wayland support is quite buggy) last time I checked. As for systemd, GNOME requires logind, but not the entire systemd package.
that requires libsystemd, which i refuse to have on any machine that i am managing.
I really think that you should draw a line between libsystemd0 and systemd itself (whether running as init or not).
One of the functions that libsystemd provides is the ability to check whether systemd is available, so if you want there to be a vibrant ecosystem of packages that do not require systemd, then it's probably worth encouraging people to write programs that check if systemd is available, and then behave sensibly if it is not.
The alternative forces the systemd refuseniks to fork every package that might find any (even optional) use for systemd services, which a) there is not sufficient manpower for, and b) removes any pressure for the upstream to put effort into accommodating your needs, so they don't bother to maintain/add the conditional code.
not sure i fully understand what you're saying, but i'm aware that devuan is supporting a huge alternative range of init systems: the only one they *don't* support is... systemd!
now, it may surprise you to learn that i've spoken to them and pointed out to them that if they want to not appear to be hypocritical (i.e. directly at odds with their stated goal of being "inclusive"), they really, *really* need to include systemd as one of the options.
however, because they've gone the "reacting against" polarisation route, which is just as equally bad as the forced-adoption route done by pretty much everyone else, there's still a lot of bad blood that needs to be healed first before anything like that can even *remotely* be considered.
That said, I don't have a lot of time for Gnome either, but that might be because a) I prefer Xmonad so I'm not their target audience,
i love the description you gave me a few years ago of what xmonad is capable of in such a ridiculously small amount of code... :)
and b) I run Debian, and we're making life difficult for Gnome maintainers by continuing to ensure that using systemd as init is optional (unlike most other distros),
good! about time someone stood up to the railroading but without the polarising perspective taken by devuan and other non-systemd distros!
and also constraining systemd when it is running as init to be backwards compatible with sysvinit in various ways, which means that there are things that Gnome can safely assume on the likes of Fedora which might not be true on a particular Debian install, so I guess Gnome on Debian has interesting little bugs that don't appear elsewhere.
well, that's actually really really good, because it means that the *BSDs don't get railroaded (through the unbelievably arrogant expectation of the systemd team that the *BSDs, *particularly* the high security-conscious ones, will simply roll over, take it up the backside and do the systemd team's bidding by adopting systemd or its interfaces or libraries).
If everyone that doesn't like systemd runs screaming away from Debian, shouting about libsystemd0, and doesn't bother to report bugs where our ambition to support other inits falls short, then they just ensure that the future they fear comes to pass.
y'know... the current hypothesis i'm floating in my head is that the full-time paid-up software libre projects are running at such a faster pace than the volunteer-driven ones that the full-time paid-up developers completely swamp and overwhelm the volunteer-driven ones.
also because they're on a different kind of motivation ("must get results otherwise my boss will fire me or not give me a good performance review") they feel *obliged* to not interact with the volunteer-driven teams.
how can i propose this hypothesis? well... over many many years, all of the projects that people have had real problems / issues with in the wider software libre community have been ones that are full-time funded.
so the key problem is that there's no real respect or inter-project communication... and, crucially, *no real reason for them to*. each project is "head-down getting on with it". as in: the actual task of developing *code* doesn't actually *need* inter-project communication or coordination. each project is doing their own thing, and doing it well.
still thinking about this and keeping an eye on it... but gotta go.
thank you for your insights, phil. really appreciated.
l.
On 12/07/2016 06:56 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
not sure i fully understand what you're saying, but i'm aware that devuan is supporting a huge alternative range of init systems: the only one they *don't* support is... systemd!
libsystemd is not an init system. The init system is initd. The various systemd components can be used for multiple tasks regardless of what init system you actually use. But the developers of Devuan have decided that systemd is inherently evil for some reason and that a variant of Debian that doesn't offer systemd (this is the only substantial difference between Debian and Devuan) would somehow be necessary.
What he is saying is that purging libsystemd like this makes it impossible to even check whether or not systemd is actually there, which inherently makes no one who develops a program to even optionally use part of systemd care about you.
On 12/07/2016 06:56 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
not sure i fully understand what you're saying, but i'm aware that devuan is supporting a huge alternative range of init systems: the only one they *don't* support is... systemd!
libsystemd is not an init system. The init system is initd. The various systemd components can be used for multiple tasks regardless of what init system you actually use. But the developers of Devuan have decided that systemd is inherently evil for some reason and that a variant of Debian that doesn't offer systemd (this is the only substantial difference between Debian and Devuan) would somehow be necessary.
What he is saying is that purging libsystemd like this makes it impossible to even check whether or not systemd is actually there, which inherently makes no one who develops a program to even optionally use part of systemd care about you.
Hi!
I'm new on this list, so hello everybody :)
If I may make a small remark... I feel that somehow, having a library installed only to know wether some other software is present or not feels the wrong way to do things. Software already have dependencies and depency checking, wether it is at build-time or run-time. If you write a software that could use any part of systemd, you shouldn't force the presence of libsystemd to find out if the parts you might want are present ! Either it is a compile-time feature, then if you compile it without systemd, you'll have to rebuild it again if you decide to install systemd, or it is a run-time feature, and a simple check for dynamically loading a shared library should be enough to know wether libsystemd is present.
So I don't see the point in having libsystemd if you do not have any part of systemd installed !
When I build ffmpeg, I don't need a lib_is_lame_present to be able to use lame if it is present ! Either I build it with LAME=yes, and it will fail if lame isn't there, or it will pass. What would be the point of having some other library installed to know wether or not lame is there ? And if it weren't a compile-time dependency, but a dynamically loaded library at runtime, the code just has to try to load the library and report that the functionality isn't present if it fails.
It should be the same for a software using systemd. Either it is compiled with libsystemd, therefore you need it to run it. Or it detects at run-time wether a particular functionality is there, and there is no need to rely on having libsystemd present to do that. The middle ground being to compile with libsystemd, and use it to detect wether it is actually working and a specific functionality is available. But it seems easy enough to allow for compiling without libsystemd and then assuming sysytemd is never there and none of its functionality are usable. Rebuild it if things changes, that is the way to do it.
Best regards :)
On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 04:49:36PM +0100, Ythogtha wrote:
I'm new on this list, so hello everybody :)
If I may make a small remark... I feel that somehow, having a library installed only to know wether some other software is present or not feels the wrong way to do things.
I don't have SELinux enabled on my system. Still many core components on my system are linked with libselinux.so.1. Will you fork Debian to patch out the SELinux support?
What is the actual overhead?
libsystemd0 takes 646kb of disk space. It adds a negligible amount of memory and run time (for the case of not using systemd).
Removing it adds a huge amount of
Software already have dependencies and depency checking, wether it is at build-time or run-time. If you write a software that could use any part of systemd, you shouldn't force the presence of libsystemd to find out if the parts you might want are present ! Either it is a compile-time feature, then if you compile it without systemd, you'll have to rebuild it again if you decide to install systemd, or it is a run-time feature, and a simple check for dynamically loading a shared library should be enough to know wether libsystemd is present.
So I don't see the point in having libsystemd if you do not have any part of systemd installed !
When I build ffmpeg, I don't need a lib_is_lame_present to be able to use lame if it is present ! Either I build it with LAME=yes, and it will fail if lame isn't there, or it will pass. What would be the point of having some other library installed to know wether or not lame is there ? And if it weren't a compile-time dependency, but a dynamically loaded library at runtime, the code just has to try to load the library and report that the functionality isn't present if it fails.
You confuse Debian with Gentoo. Gentoo is a distribution for those who rebuild all of their packages with various options. Along the way the unique sets of options lets the trigger their own unique bugs and thus they help test the various softwares.
Debian is a binary distribution. There is a single set of build options for each package.
It should be the same for a software using systemd. Either it is compiled with libsystemd, therefore you need it to run it. Or it detects at run-time wether a particular functionality is there, and there is no need to rely on having libsystemd present to do that.
How do you detect this at run time? Every program should write its own (buggy) test? No, it should use an existing test. Use libsystemd.
The middle ground being to compile with libsystemd, and use it to detect wether it is actually working and a specific functionality is available. But it seems easy enough to allow for compiling without libsystemd and then assuming sysytemd is never there and none of its functionality are usable. Rebuild it if things changes, that is the way to do it.
This works in Gentoo. Not in Debian.
On Thursday 8. December 2016 13.41.19 Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
How do you detect this at run time? Every program should write its own (buggy) test? No, it should use an existing test. Use libsystemd.
I don't want to get into an argument about systemd, but one way of detecting systemd would to be for things to test for a file that always gets installed as part of the systemd packages. This file could even have zero content and be explicitly added by the package maintainers (if the systemd people kept renaming everything), and nothing would ever need to link to anything. You could call this magic file libsystemd.so if you wanted, and it could actually be libsystemd.so if you really wanted. That would be a very Unix-like way of dealing with this.
Naturally, someone could create that file manually and confuse software testing for it, but then they could do many other crazy things to defeat the packaging system, so it really wouldn't be a significant concern.
Paul
On 12/08/2016 09:25 AM, Paul Boddie wrote:
I don't want to get into an argument about systemd, but one way of detecting systemd would to be for things to test for a file that always gets installed as part of the systemd packages. This file could even have zero content and be explicitly added by the package maintainers (if the systemd people kept renaming everything), and nothing would ever need to link to anything. You could call this magic file libsystemd.so if you wanted, and it could actually be libsystemd.so if you really wanted. That would be a very Unix-like way of dealing with this.
That would not be a portable way to do it. Very bad idea. What if the system you're on uses that directory for something else? It could be that it just has to not support systemd at all. Or what if that turns out to be the file name of something else? You can make this unlikely, but not impossible.
And how would it be Unix-like? OK, I'm much younger than Unix and only a video game programmer who mostly uses Python, so maybe this is just because of that, but I have never heard of any Unix-like system telling programs about its capabilities by having or not having a particular file. Usually you use a simple function for that. Checking for the existence of a particular file would be esoteric.
Of course, that's all assuming you don't need to link to libsystemd, since that's something you decide at compile-time, not at runtime. If you need to link to libsystemd anyway, then the whole idea is pointless.
On Thursday 8. December 2016 16.00.56 Julie Marchant wrote:
On 12/08/2016 09:25 AM, Paul Boddie wrote:
I don't want to get into an argument about systemd, but one way of detecting systemd would to be for things to test for a file that always gets installed as part of the systemd packages. This file could even have zero content and be explicitly added by the package maintainers (if the systemd people kept renaming everything), and nothing would ever need to link to anything. You could call this magic file libsystemd.so if you wanted, and it could actually be libsystemd.so if you really wanted. That would be a very Unix-like way of dealing with this.
That would not be a portable way to do it. Very bad idea. What if the system you're on uses that directory for something else? It could be that it just has to not support systemd at all. Or what if that turns out to be the file name of something else? You can make this unlikely, but not impossible.
We're talking about distributions where the package maintainers get to decide where everything lives. So, if the systemd packages were installed and configured, there would be a file indicating that systemd is available. Indeed, the Debian configuration mechanisms may well be able to provide such information anyway, so an alternative could involve running one of the Debian tools to determine what the init system is. Obviously, I'm only talking about Debian here: other distributions would have their own mechanisms.
It would be distribution policy to not let such files be populated by other packages. When people advocate abandoning distribution tools and using all the different language- and system-specific tools for distributing software instead, they often overlook the value provided by things like distribution policies, whose aims are to make sure that everything works together. The approach described above relies on Debian policy and tools to have a chance of working. Similar caveats apply to other distributions.
And how would it be Unix-like? OK, I'm much younger than Unix and only a video game programmer who mostly uses Python, so maybe this is just because of that, but I have never heard of any Unix-like system telling programs about its capabilities by having or not having a particular file. Usually you use a simple function for that. Checking for the existence of a particular file would be esoteric.
I'm also younger than Unix. :-)
What form would this "simple function" take? If it is a Python function, it has to be implemented by a module which in turn needs implementing using a file. Similarly, a C function would need to be implemented in a library which in turn needs implementing using a file. All I'm saying is that demanding a specific link dependency is needless overengineering when a well-managed system could just permit a test for a file instead.
Not everything is written in languages that like to link to random shared libraries: doing things in shell scripts is often sufficient, hence my remarks about the absurdity of shared libraries being the point of integration when an actual executable (for example, xdg-open) is the better choice. (I seem to remember people actually saying that if you wanted to use their special libdesktopopen thing from a shell script, you'd need to write a one-off C program to link to it yourself, reproducing an executable that they didn't want to see provided themselves.)
And the use of files to direct behaviour is definitely Unix-like, directing the evolution of Unix-inspired systems like Plan 9, even though they haven't proven as popular (but in many respects that has little to do with the chosen paradigm itself). Things like the system/device filesystems provided by Linux are definitely inspired by this supposed Unix tradition.
Of course, that's all assuming you don't need to link to libsystemd, since that's something you decide at compile-time, not at runtime. If you need to link to libsystemd anyway, then the whole idea is pointless.
I thought the issue was that a load of packages had unconditional libsystemd dependencies because they might need to test for systemd. Of course, if they want to use systemd, they'll need libsystemd, but otherwise they appear to be burdened with a chunk of functionality that they might only want to test for.
I don't see generic mail handling programs having unconditional dependencies on, say, postfix just to test whether postfix is running (example [*]), so why one would need such a specific dependency in the case of systemd is rather mysterious. Then again, I haven't followed all the politics around this.
[*] https://packages.debian.org/jessie/mailagent
Apologies if people don't want to read this, but I'm only pointing out the apparent absurdity that seems to have led to the creation of Devuan. And although it isn't directly related to Luke's current engineering efforts, I think that work done for Devuan might help the development of FSF- endorsed/libre distributions which definitely have been relevant to Luke's broader efforts.
But I'll gladly discuss this off-list, particularly with anyone wanting to look into doing work on libre distributions.
Paul
P.S. It is interesting to see that you - Julie - have successfully crowdfunded software development on Crowd Supply, and I hope that more of this kind of thing happens in future.
On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 7:41 AM, Tzafrir Cohen tzafrir@cohens.org.il wrote:
On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 04:49:36PM +0100, Ythogtha wrote:
I'm new on this list, so hello everybody :)If I may make a small remark... I feel that somehow, having a library installed only to know wether some other software is present or not feels the wrong way to do things.
I don't have SELinux enabled on my system. Still many core components on my system are linked with libselinux.so.1. Will you fork Debian to patch out the SELinux support?
I don't see libselinux.so.1 on my debian system.
What is the actual overhead?
libsystemd0 takes 646kb of disk space. It adds a negligible amount of memory and run time (for the case of not using systemd).
Removing it adds a huge amount of
Software already have dependencies and depency checking, wether it is atbuild-time or run-time. If you write a software that could use any part of systemd, you shouldn't force the presence of libsystemd to find out if the parts you might want are present ! Either it is a compile-time feature, then if you compile it without systemd, you'll have to rebuild it again if you decide to install systemd, or it is a run-time feature, and a simple check for dynamically loading a shared library should be enough to know wether libsystemd is present.
So I don't see the point in having libsystemd if you do not have anypart of systemd installed !
When I build ffmpeg, I don't need a lib_is_lame_present to be able touse lame if it is present ! Either I build it with LAME=yes, and it will fail if lame isn't there, or it will pass. What would be the point of having some other library installed to know wether or not lame is there ? And if it weren't a compile-time dependency, but a dynamically loaded library at runtime, the code just has to try to load the library and report that the functionality isn't present if it fails.
You confuse Debian with Gentoo. Gentoo is a distribution for those who rebuild all of their packages with various options. Along the way the unique sets of options lets the trigger their own unique bugs and thus they help test the various softwares.
Debian is a binary distribution. There is a single set of build options for each package.
It should be the same for a software using systemd. Either it iscompiled with libsystemd, therefore you need it to run it. Or it detects at run-time wether a particular functionality is there, and there is no need to rely on having libsystemd present to do that.
How do you detect this at run time? Every program should write its own (buggy) test? No, it should use an existing test. Use libsystemd.
The middle ground being to compile with libsystemd, and use it to detectwether it is actually working and a specific functionality is available. But it seems easy enough to allow for compiling without libsystemd and then assuming sysytemd is never there and none of its functionality are usable. Rebuild it if things changes, that is the way to do it.
This works in Gentoo. Not in Debian.
-- Tzafrir Cohen | tzafrir@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il | | a Mutt's tzafrir@cohens.org.il | | best tzafrir@debian.org | | friend
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2016-12-08 16:08 GMT+01:00 Adam Van Ymeren adam.vany@gmail.com:
On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 7:41 AM, Tzafrir Cohen tzafrir@cohens.org.il wrote:
On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 04:49:36PM +0100, Ythogtha wrote:
I'm new on this list, so hello everybody :)If I may make a small remark... I feel that somehow, having a library installed only to know wether
some other
software is present or not feels the wrong way to do things.
I don't have SELinux enabled on my system. Still many core components on my system are linked with libselinux.so.1. Will you fork Debian to patch out the SELinux support?
I don't see libselinux.so.1 on my debian system.
I'd like to suggest, not demand, to move this discussion/quest/... somewhere else. It is no longer about the original discussion nor about linux/arm, arm-netbooks, eoma68. And it keeps demanding time from our friend Luke. Who is more than busy with changing the world ;-)
What is the actual overhead?
libsystemd0 takes 646kb of disk space. It adds a negligible amount of memory and run time (for the case of not using systemd).
On 12/8/16, mike.valk@gmail.com mike.valk@gmail.com wrote:
2016-12-08 16:08 GMT+01:00 Adam Van Ymeren adam.vany@gmail.com:
On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 7:41 AM, Tzafrir Cohen tzafrir@cohens.org.il wrote:
On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 04:49:36PM +0100, Ythogtha wrote:
I'm new on this list, so hello everybody :)If I may make a small remark... I feel that somehow, having a library installed only to know wether
some other
software is present or not feels the wrong way to do things.
I don't have SELinux enabled on my system. Still many core components on my system are linked with libselinux.so.1. Will you fork Debian to patch out the SELinux support?
I don't see libselinux.so.1 on my debian system.
libselinux was designed with a research project leading it (the FLASK model). papers were written in advance.
basically they obeyed ISO 9001 QA rules. they said what they were going to do, then they did it AND NO MORE.
since then there has ben ZERO scope-creep.
the opportunity was therefore there for people to review and become comfortable with SE/Linux over the something like TEN year period in which it was developed and matured. throughout all that time there was no "oh and now we'll add feature X Y Z with absolutely ZERO discussion or consultation with the wider linux community".
by complete contrast we have a huge number of instances where the systemd team have basically gone ahead with some random additional "feature" each and every single one of which has had experienced systems adminstrators, experienced unix design engineers and security experts alike going "what the fucking hell kind of drugs are these fuckwits ON??" ok - they don't write that publicly: they're very very polite in public, but the *private* discussions...
... oh and then it gets rolled out blithely to every single linux distro.
so it's the total lack of consultation that has everybody really *really* pissed off. they could be writing perfect code with zero security flaws, perfect design, best design in the world, and people could not give a damn: they would STILL refuse to use it... because there was NO CONSULTATION or proper design.
so yes, thank you for mentioning libselinux (again) because that's how the systemd team _should_ be doing it. again, it comes down to the fact that the systemd team, led by one of the most hated prominent software developers i've heard of, is full-time employed: their priorities are different from the wider community.
I'd like to suggest, not demand, to move this discussion/quest/... somewhere else. It is no longer about the original discussion nor about linux/arm, arm-netbooks, eoma68. And it keeps demanding time from our friend Luke. Who is more than busy with changing the world ;-)
apologies but i just stopped reading everything, because the connection speed is down to 8k/sec (due to the DDOS attacks going on world-wide right now) and i'm travelling again.
l.
What is the actual overhead?
libsystemd0 takes 646kb of disk space. It adds a negligible amount of memory and run time (for the case of not using systemd).
On Thu, Dec 08, 2016 at 10:08:33AM -0500, Adam Van Ymeren wrote:
On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 7:41 AM, Tzafrir Cohen tzafrir@cohens.org.il wrote:
On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 04:49:36PM +0100, Ythogtha wrote:
I'm new on this list, so hello everybody :)If I may make a small remark... I feel that somehow, having a library installed only to know wether some other software is present or not feels the wrong way to do things.
I don't have SELinux enabled on my system. Still many core components on my system are linked with libselinux.so.1. Will you fork Debian to patch out the SELinux support?
I don't see libselinux.so.1 on my debian system.
That sounds odd. It is a dependency of e.g. dpkg, coreutils and util-linux. All three are essential packages (that is: must be installed on the system). Thus also their dependencies must be installed.
See the output of:
ldd /bin/ls | grep selinux
dpkg -L libselinux1
On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 12:54 PM, Tzafrir Cohen tzafrir@cohens.org.il wrote:
On Thu, Dec 08, 2016 at 10:08:33AM -0500, Adam Van Ymeren wrote:
On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 7:41 AM, Tzafrir Cohen tzafrir@cohens.org.il wrote:
On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 04:49:36PM +0100, Ythogtha wrote:
I'm new on this list, so hello everybody :)If I may make a small remark... I feel that somehow, having a library installed only to know wether some other software is present or not feels the wrong way to do things.
I don't have SELinux enabled on my system. Still many core components on my system are linked with libselinux.so.1. Will you fork Debian to patch out the SELinux support?
I don't see libselinux.so.1 on my debian system.
That sounds odd. It is a dependency of e.g. dpkg, coreutils and util-linux. All three are essential packages (that is: must be installed on the system). Thus also their dependencies must be installed.
See the output of:
ldd /bin/ls | grep selinux
dpkg -L libselinux1
I ended up finding it after someone else suggested something similar. It wasn't where I expected and I didn't search very hard :).
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On Wednesday 7. December 2016 12.56.06 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
not sure i fully understand what you're saying, but i'm aware that devuan is supporting a huge alternative range of init systems: the only one they *don't* support is... systemd!
now, it may surprise you to learn that i've spoken to them and pointed out to them that if they want to not appear to be hypocritical (i.e. directly at odds with their stated goal of being "inclusive"), they really, *really* need to include systemd as one of the options.
however, because they've gone the "reacting against" polarisation route, which is just as equally bad as the forced-adoption route done by pretty much everyone else, there's still a lot of bad blood that needs to be healed first before anything like that can even *remotely* be considered.
I can understand where the Devuan people are coming from, though. It is a reaction against a form of change that they feel undermines choice and, for many, causes work for work's sake.
Consequently, if they are to resist demands by people to change their code to work with the systemd ecosystem (because it is more convenient for the people making the demands, for instance), and since systemd as an ecosystem itself rather seems to make demands on others but not yield to any itself, then the most effective strategy is to eliminate all parts of that ecosystem from the distribution and not give people the excuse to foist the various systemd technologies on others.
I actually don't have a strong position on systemd, but I do note that it does cause extra work because I recently had to guide someone through a Debian Jessie installation on an embedded system, and without them going through the effort of building a newer kernel (with all the accompanying quality assurance to see if a new kernel works as well as the old one, once they set up cross- compilation toolchains, of course), I had to find out how to switch out systemd because the system will refuse to boot with it enabled, thanks to systemd's additional demands on various kernel features.
Fortunately, Debian does still support sysvinit, and enough time has passed that it is possible to multistrap and just specify sysvinit-core and have everything realise that you want sysvinit and not systemd-initd (or whatever they've called it) as the init system, but I gather that various hacks were previously needed to persuade apt and other things of such intent. In contrast to claims of choice, it really doesn't inspire confidence that warnings appear about using other init systems, however, nor indeed does the apparent delay in getting the tooling up to speed with such choices.
(I'm a bit aghast at the need to have libraries lying around to test for things, especially things that aren't there. I remember bizarre suggestions in ancient discussions about opening graphical programs in a generic fashion on Free Software desktops, where the suggested interface to such capabilities was to dynamically load such shared libraries and then call functions in them, clearly optimised for the random C-only developer who thinks that raw performance must take a back seat every time and that a request to open a Web browser must be done in as few cycles as possible, even though that request is a miniscule portion of the time to actually fulfil such a request. Eventually, common sense prevailed and xdg-open - a *program*, like one would expect in the Unix tradition - was born.)
[...]
y'know... the current hypothesis i'm floating in my head is that the full-time paid-up software libre projects are running at such a faster pace than the volunteer-driven ones that the full-time paid-up developers completely swamp and overwhelm the volunteer-driven ones.
I've had that impression for a while now. Indeed, the phenomenon of the well- resourced organisation dominating or capturing a Free Software project is long understood: you have that kind of thing with stuff like WebKit, for instance. Combine that with permissive licensing advocacy where the only thing encouraging cooperation with the "upstream" of a permissively-licensed project is if upstream is well-resourced, and you have a mechanism for a kind of pilfering of the commons.
And then there's this cultivation of the noble "open source" developer who gives their work away (permissively licensed, of course) to curry favour with their corporate betters. Either that or the software they write is a purely hobbyist endeavour to "scratch their own itch" or whatever. It all adds up to putting the individual in their place in some kind of neoliberal narrative posing as altruism.
Paul
P.S. Where Devuan might be interesting, regardless of the systemd aspect, is the way it has needed to find ways of filtering Debian. Such activities are also done by FSF-compliant distributions and there may be some benefit in those distributions evaluating the Devuan tools for their own purposes.
On 12/07/2016 04:07 AM, Philip Hands wrote:
and also constraining systemd when it is running as init to be backwards compatible with sysvinit in various ways, which means that there are things that Gnome can safely assume on the likes of Fedora which might not be true on a particular Debian install, so I guess Gnome on Debian has interesting little bugs that don't appear elsewhere.
What bugs? I didn't have any problem with GNOME on Debian Jessie, to my recollection. In fact, the only problem I had on it was not being able to compile SimpleScreenRecorder and OBS. Also, I don't see any reason for there to be any special bugs; GNOME depends on and uses logind, not initd.
2016-12-05 13:55 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net:
On 12/5/16, mike.valk@gmail.com mike.valk@gmail.com wrote:
2016-12-05 11:55 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net: How about using a lighter/smaller laptop and a "mini" desktop as a
server,
SSH/VNC. Like an Intel NUC
nice idea... can't do it. remember, i would have to carry the mini desktop as a server, plus its power supply, plus network cables, in my backpack, setting it up at the factory, or at a client, or at a hotel, or a supplier, every single time.
plus, openscad, which is heavy on the 3D OpenGL side, simply wouldn't work over X11
1. Cables; Buy a beefier adapter and fit it with two ends, one for the laptop and one for the desktop. Might not work for Dell etc beacause of their 1-wire protocol [1]. Use wireless between the laptop and desktop. They're close together. Most Wifi cards can do AP and Client simultaneously sap laptop in dual mode and desktop in client. But bring a cable just in case...
2. Remte access; Don't do X11, do VNC or RDP. Or use a hdmi/dvi grabber. If you need X11 use SSH compression. Works wonders!. I'm used to narrow lines and old Unix systems and SSH compression saves the day. Most cpu's even have compression processors to do the heavy lifting.
It's a little more work to set up but more versatile and replaceable. Most 32GiB Laptops are huge, heavy and expensive and drain a lot of battery fast. I gather from your response CPU is not the issue RAM is. Those "Mobile workstations" have consuming but faster CPU's.
This setup allows you to run browsers/presentations on your laptop and your workflow on the desktop. Gaining extra RAM! Laptop+Deskop.
But do what you feel is best and give you the most productive environment.
This is bootstrapping the EOMA. You don't produce cars with cars. Those are produced with factories and trucks etc. This laptop is your factory.
To bad most software doesn't scale out and run on ARM ABI's. Then a cluster of EOMA's could do the trick ;-)
[1] http://hackaday.com/2014/03/03/hacking-dell-laptop-charger-identification/
On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 5:55 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
*sigh* argh i can just feel that, after thinking it through, 16GB simply isn't going to be enough, long-term.
Just a thought, seeing as you are already in/near China, if you find a suitable laptop that supports 32GB, maybe you could save some money by buying such a laptop with the lowest amount memory they will sell you and then buying the 32GB separately from some local supplier? Maybe you've made some connections that can hook you up?
l.
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On 12/6/16, Adam Van Ymeren adam.vany@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 5:55 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
*sigh* argh i can just feel that, after thinking it through, 16GB simply isn't going to be enough, long-term.
Just a thought, seeing as you are already in/near China, if you find a suitable laptop that supports 32GB, maybe you could save some money by buying such a laptop with the lowest amount memory they will sell you and then buying the 32GB separately from some local supplier? Maybe you've made some connections that can hook you up?
this may come as a surprise but the actual amount of money saved is not that great. it would appear that the zero-tariff trade deals with the US result in the costs being practically the same.
if i *did* find something that was reduced in cost significantly i would be immediately suspicious.
l.
On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 12:54 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
On 12/6/16, Adam Van Ymeren adam.vany@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 5:55 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
*sigh* argh i can just feel that, after thinking it through, 16GB simply isn't going to be enough, long-term.
Just a thought, seeing as you are already in/near China, if you find a suitable laptop that supports 32GB, maybe you could save some money by buying such a laptop with the lowest amount memory they will sell you and then buying the 32GB separately from some local supplier? Maybe you've made some connections that can hook you up?
this may come as a surprise but the actual amount of money saved is not that great. it would appear that the zero-tariff trade deals with the US result in the costs being practically the same.
Interesting, good to know. I was more thinking that the laptop manufacturers would markup the price itself to increase their margins. Last time I purchased a laptop I bought the SSD separately.
if i *did* find something that was reduced in cost significantly i would be immediately suspicious.
l.
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